Obsidian put up a very whiny post saying that white guys whine a lot. His post is whiny because it says stuff like "you are indeed, LOSERS. L. O. S. E. R. S. Read it slowly." This is apparently how "grownassed Men" talk. (Note to self: I do not want to be a "grownassed Man.")
In typical Obsidian fashion it asks you to respond to an argument that consists of something like 20,000 words which touch on 50 subjects in no coherent order. So, if you respond well to one point, he’ll point to another part of his original writings and ask why you ignored that point. Then, two weeks later when you’ve stopped paying attention, he’ll put up a post claiming that he stepped "right in your chest," which is apparently good for him and bad for you, or so I infer.
As best I can tell, using his own words, Obisidian’s argument is:
Now, the argument I am advancing in this discussion is that I am calling the whole notion of White Guy as Victim BULLSHIT. . . .
Why are White guys, who are highly college educated, have considerable disposable income, enjoy significant advantages simply being White, so very bitter and nihilistic about life? And, for those of you who maintain that the Roissy analysis highlights the reasons for this and more importantly, justifies it, then what real solutions have been broached to solve these problems? . . .
So, it gets really tired to hear White guys, who by dint of birth have so many advantages over so many others, whine and moan about not being able to get the last two marbles, when they already got a wheelbarrow full of em. . . .
The entire arc of the (White) Manosphere is one of victimology, woe is me, everybody’s picking on me, the much maligned White Guy-from Sailer, to Half Sigma, to OneSTDV, to Roissy to the Spearhead, and it’s downright sickening, one because that’s no way for grownassed Men to conduct themselves, and two because if yure [sic – I think] really all that like you say you are, you would have done somethng [sic] by now, and you haven’t.
Well, perhaps we should act like "grownassed Men," put down our keyboards, and spend our days reading Marcus Aurelius so that we’re in the proper frame of mind to watch the downfall of Western Civilization.
But seriously, . . .
White guy victimology
I think victimology is the wrong word to use to describe the position of the HBD or MRA groups.
If you are on a train and you see that there is an enormous boulder in the track ahead of you and you yell that the train should be stopped, you’re not really acting like a victim. If everyone else ignores the boulder, they might think of you a victim, but a victim you are not.
"White guys" are expected to roll over for everyone and Obsidian is saying that we can’t even complain about it. Your wife cheated on you? Well, you better smile while she takes the kids and half of your income! A black guy with lower test scores applied to the same college or job that you applied to? Well, you better smile while he gets the job you otherwise would have gotten! You can’t send your kids to the neighborhood school because it’s unfit for actual learning? Smile! You can’t leave your house after 10:00pm because of crime? That sucks, but you can’t put a price on diversity!
Of course, if you openly complain about these things, you’ll be called a "racist." At which point, you’ll be more unemployable than an uneducated black ex-con.
All hyperbole aside, the truth is that the white guy in the US is basically supposed to solve other peoples’ problems.
Enter the HBDers and guys like Roissy. The HBDers point out the problems are not solvable. Roissy points out that there is only so much you can expect from "white guys." If you take too much from them, you’ll destroy civilization.
These positions aren’t whiny. Roger Boisjoly wasn’t "whining" when he suggested that the o-rings on the Challenger wouldn’t work at low temperatures.
In truth, I think that everyone should man-up and take care of himself, but I don’t think a level playing field is too much to ask for.
The Black non-underclass
Obsidian (with some validity, in my opinion) criticizes HBDers for focusing too much on the black underclass. Of course, in the next sentence he says something like "White guys" have "considerable disposable income." If he wants HBDers to take a more nuanced view of blacks, he’d be better served by leading by example and taking a more nuanced view of whites.
Under this more nuanced view, the HBD view still wins. For example: "Financial assets, excluding home equity, among white families grew from a median value of $22,000 to $100,000 during that [23-year] period while African Americans saw very little increase in assets in real dollars and had a median wealth of $5,000 in 2007."
I live in a neighborhood with lots of middle to upper-middle class blacks and whites. In general, whites spend their money on education and improvements to their houses. Blacks – even the wealthy, well educated ones – tend to spend their money on cars and clothes. My neighbor – who is in her sixties and black and lives in a house that’s probably worth $650,000 to $700,000 – has a son who gets unemployment checks from the DC government (a couple have been delivered to my house by accident). The son drives a one-year old Mercedes. No one in the family is married or appears to ever have been married.
Yes, there is a black middle class and upper-middle class. No, it still doesn’t act the same as its white counterpart. Further, it acts in a way that ensures the next generation will not benefit from the current generations progress. One step forward then two steps back . . .
Foseti 
Hi Foseti,
I see that you too, simply cannot discuss the Black middle class without in some way resorting to its “underclass”. Very interesting social experiment in studying the White Psyche, I must say!
Anyway, SO WHAT if the fam next door spends its money on cars etc? Last time I checked, it was their money and they can spend it on whatever they like.
Secondly, SO WHAT if the son gets unemployment bennies? The very fact that he gets them meant that he was working at some point, and they aren’t some kind of handout, you pay into the pot, I know you know that.
My point about the average White male in the Manosphere, is that they feel themselves aggrieved; everyone is out to get them, from the gov’t to the Women. And it’s all a big crock of crap.
Like I said in my post, I’ve noted this trend in just about every major site or venue in the Manosphere-ALL of them point the finger elsewhere, its always someone else’s fault. So, for example, if a White guy doesn’t get into an elite school, its automatically because some Darkie got pushed to the head of the line. It couldn’t be that the White guy simply wasn’t good enough to be selected. Oh, no.
And who said that it was a divine right for White guys to get into elite schools anyway? Especially if said schools are so filled with Liberal groupthink? Why can’t you go to the state schools? If indeed HBD works in the White Man’s favor as much as you say, the cream’s gonna rise to the top and you’ll still make out in the end no matter where you went to college, right? Heck, look at both Glenn Beck AND Rush Lombaugh-both were college dropouts. They’ve proven that you can make it and still be a Conservative.
So what’s you guys’ excuses?
Second, if a Woman leaves you guys, she’s everything but a child of God-never once do you guys evern examine yourselves and what YOU did. Nope, nothing to see here, keep it moving. As I’ve said over at Roissy’s, you guys bitch more about American Women, than American Women bitch about anything, LOL. Yet, so many of you balk at the mere suggestion of actually visiting those places you guys claim have better Women(!). I mean, you just can’t make this stuff up.
Every single day OneSTDV has up a post that says at heart, woe is me, the White Guy. Same deal with Half Sigma. Same deal with Steve Sailer. Different day. Same shit.
A big part of being an adult, or a “grownassed Man” if you will, is being introspective. And if it’s one thing I’ve noticed so many of you guys have a marked tendency not to do, indeed you vociferously resist doing so, is in being introspective. You never consider that the reason why you haven’t “arrived” to where you should be in life, is simply because you aren’t as smart or talented or hardworking as you thought you were. Nor were you as interesting, engaging or just plain decent as you thought you were. You’re quick to “recommend” to others what they should or shouldn’t do to improve themselves, but you guys never take a bit of your own medicine.
Kids think and act and behave like that, Foseti.
And a big part of the reason why so many of you White guys are whining, is because you simply refuse to grow up.
Bang, there it is.
OK, your turn to deny, deny, deny…LOL
O.
First, I have no problem if the family next door spends their money on things that will become worthless. However, it will ensure that the next generation inherits no wealth and thereby exacerbate the “wealth gap.” This will, of course, be taken as evidence of continuing racism and not evidence for the fact that blacks tend to make shitty investment decisions. Again, blame the white dude.
Second, when you say, “My point about the average White male in the Manosphere, is that they feel themselves aggrieved,” I’m saying you’re wrong. You’re missing the point of HBD and Roissy types. Again, HBDers are saying that the problems are not fixable. Roissy is saying that disadvantaging the white guys in favor of others is going to backfire. These are much more interesting arguments than you give them credit for, though I can certainly see why you would have trouble responding to them.
Third, as to your point about white guys complaining about not getting into school, I don’t understand why this shouldn’t be an issue. Two people do the same things, one guy does them better and the other guy gets the reward. You may not want white guys to complain about this, but 100% of people will complain about this situation. It’s simply how people are. I don’t think blacks complained too much during the Civil Rights Movement. I’d only like what they wanted, an end to legalized discrimination based on gender or race.
Fourth, as to women in the US. Maybe white guys would be better going the way of black guys and avoiding marriage and fatherhood all together. You seem to find that route more productive and less whiny. Is that what you’re suggesting? Honestly, I’m a bit confused why someone defending blacks, even upper-middle class blacks, would bring up women in the US.
Finally, I think I am “where I want to be in life.” You’ll be hard-pressed to find a personally more happy guy. The joy of HBD is that I don’t “recommend” to other people what they should do. I accept that they do what they do. In other words, I don’t spend my time trying to solve insoluble problems.
F: First, I have no problem if the family next door spends their money on things that will become worthless. However, it will ensure that the next generation inherits no wealth and thereby exacerbate the “wealth gap.” This will, of course, be taken as evidence of continuing racism and not evidence for the fact that blacks tend to make shitty investment decisions. Again, blame the white dude.
O: If the shoe fits…
F: Second, when you say, “My point about the average White male in the Manosphere, is that they feel themselves aggrieved,” I’m saying you’re wrong. You’re missing the point of HBD and Roissy types. Again, HBDers are saying that the problems are not fixable. Roissy is saying that disadvantaging the white guys in favor of others is going to backfire. These are much more interesting arguments than you give them credit for, though I can certainly see why you would have trouble responding to them.
O: Personally, I couldn’t give a hoot. I’m just tired of hearing you guys whining.
F: Third, as to your point about white guys complaining about not getting into school, I don’t understand why this shouldn’t be an issue. Two people do the same things, one guy does them better and the other guy gets the reward. You may not want white guys to complain about this, but 100% of people will complain about this situation. It’s simply how people are. I don’t think blacks complained too much during the Civil Rights Movement. I’d only like what they wanted, an end to legalized discrimination based on gender or race.
O; James Meredith not being able to attend Ole Miss is a far cry different from some White pleb in the Manosphere whining about his not being able to get into Princeton, Yale or Harvard.
F: Fourth, as to women in the US. Maybe white guys would be better going the way of black guys and avoiding marriage and fatherhood all together. You seem to find that route more productive and less whiny. Is that what you’re suggesting? Honestly, I’m a bit confused why someone defending blacks, even upper-middle class blacks, would bring up women in the US.
O: Because I don’t have any problem with American Women, and two, I don’t have any ideologically fixed views wrt marriage or non-marriage.
F: Finally, I think I am “where I want to be in life.” You’ll be hard-pressed to find a personally more happy guy. The joy of HBD is that I don’t “recommend” to other people what they should do. I accept that they do what they do. In other words, I don’t spend my time trying to solve insoluble problems.
O: No, you just create a blog where you can whine, bitch and moan about them. Great!
O.
“F: Second, when you say, My point about the average White male in the Manosphere, is that they feel themselves aggrieved, Im saying youre wrong. Youre missing the point of HBD and Roissy types. Again, HBDers are saying that the problems are not fixable. Roissy is saying that disadvantaging the white guys in favor of others is going to backfire. These are much more interesting arguments than you give them credit for, though I can certainly see why you would have trouble responding to them.
“O: Personally, I couldn’t give a hoot. I’m just tired of hearing you guys whining.”
Really? Is a more intellectually lazy attitude imaginable?
I believe these guys have come up with incredibly devastating arguments. But their arguments sound a bit whiny to you, so they should be dismissed?
If you don’t even want to deal with the meat of their arguments, why do you bother discussing them?
Because I’m tired of hearing guys who ostensibly have everything on the ball, do nothing about all the problems they see. Which suggests to me that they aren’t as all that as they may want to believe; they’re essentailly impotent to create real change.
That’s why.
O.
But you’re response to their arguments/whining is the same as the one you criticize – you are not engaging the argument, you’re simply complaining about it and dismissing it.
Finally, once again, the HBD viewpoint would suggest that the problems are not all solvable.
I actually think the arguments, some of them, are quite legit. All the more reason as to why mobilization is key. To date, there has been none. Which really raises some powerful questions. Which, no surprise, you guys don’t like to answer.
Funny that.
O.
It seems like our differences are then philosophical. Apparently you expect major societal changes simply to happen after the benefits of such changes have been briefly discussed.
Suffice it to say that I don’t believe this to be the case.
Obsidian:
By your logic, as soon as someone has a radical thought on any subject they should immediately act. In the post-slavery era and the lead up to Civil Rights do you think every maligned black person who had the means to rise up did so immediately? Of course not; there is fear and uncertainty to deal with.
Of course, nay-sayers and taunters who say “why don’t you do something then” are all part of the process too, and they may provide the impetus to mobilization.
Foseti,
If you go to my blog, you’ll see a post by me where I take to Tony Dungy to task for a number of reasons. Among the points I make is the case for “Choice For Men”. Perhaps you’ve heard of it?
Now, here’s my question: exactly what has the whole of the MRM done to make this a reality?
O.
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