The last judgement of Darwin

I can’t ever remember disagreeing with Heartiste, but I disagree with this post:

Alpha males who use game to attract women are doing those things which favor passing on their DNA in the state of nature, but they are thwarting the final step in the reproductive process with modern contraceptives. The use of the condom or Pill to prevent pregnancy does not render the successful alpha male womanizer any less alpha; a legal ban on all contraceptives would quickly restore his primacy in the snot-nosed litter market.

The pill changes some things, but it does not change nature itself.

Heartiste is a devout follower of the laws of nature and reality. However, I think he’s gone astray here. Nature does not recognize the distinction he’s making. "Doing those things which favor passing on their DNA" but which don’t actually pass on DNA are no different to nature than things that don’t pass on DNA. Similarly, nature does not recognize potential changes to the law that would enable someone to pass on his DNA with success.

Nature’s a bitch, but she’s not hard to understand. You either pass on your DNA or you don’t. There are no grey areas here.

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7 Responses to The last judgement of Darwin

  1. B says:

    The annoying thing about Roissy is that he’s a vocal Darwinian atheist (“biomechanics is G-d,” etc.) But by Darwinian standards, Roissy is a loser, especially when compared to some Mennonite farmer in North Dakota with seven kids.

  2. I think he’s saying that, with a ban on contraceptives, the alpha male’s sexual exploits would be producing lots of kids, as nature intended. And he’s saying it from the context of being a successful male of the species – i.e. chosen for mating by many females of the species, a state of affairs that would generally lead to many offspring, but for the use of contraceptives.

  3. Matt says:

    Except that, however attractive his notion is as conjecture, history doesn’t support it.

    Alpha dominance of the sexual marketplace shows a consistent decline over time all the way from the development of agriculture until the 1960s, when it suddenly reversed course dramatically and returned to near the level of the neolithic era in a span of less than 30 years.

    If women, as they have throughout human history, still expected sex to generally result in babies, they’d be well-incentivized to suppress their first instincts in favor of longer-term thinking.

    It’s birth control pills that give the alpha male his present disproportionate level of power in the SMP. Take them away, and what you get is not a world filled with alpha-spawn, but rather, the 1950s with cooler gadgets. (Which would mean that an alpha guy would probably still have the hottest wife on the block, but a harem would be out of the question.)

  4. RS says:

    > The pill changes some things, but it does not change nature itself.

    Actually it may. Those sex steroids are somewhat mind altering. I think I may have read it slants girls towards betas a bit, can’t remember.

    He’s mistaken about this: “would quickly restore his primacy in the snot-nosed litter market”. Primacy in social dominance never ensured fitness primacy. There is going to be some correlation (a small one), but it’s not the same thing. Subordinate individuals, in plenty of cases in every animal species, have plenty of fitness.

    In an animal like Euro-man or Japan-man you reach an equilibrium where some males are more or less pacific, and some are more or less pugnacious (these are probably a little bit superior genetically, not least in deleterious mutation burden). Their fitness is not that much different. Alphas get more and better sex but they also suffer much more fitness loss by way of conflict. In the extreme, as top male chimp you get killed in a coup when a new coalition forms – or you lose your nuts and one limb, whatever.

  5. K(yle) says:

    Alpha dominance of the sexual marketplace shows a consistent decline over time all the way from the development of agriculture until the 1960s, when it suddenly reversed course dramatically and returned to near the level of the neolithic era in a span of less than 30 years.

    For most of that time, most women didn’t have much say in who they mated with. It wasn’t until at least the 60s that it was expected that every woman had absolute authority in choosing her mate(s). Some things, like miscegenation, were still taboo, but the neolithic breeding habits are mostly a matter of females choosing cavemen, rather than their mothers and fathers choosing farmers.

    I think the post misses Roissy’s point overall.

    “Doing those things which favor passing on their DNA” but which don’t actually pass on DNA are no different to nature than things that don’t pass on DNA.

    The point being made isn’t about ‘nature’. It’s about the pill basically short-circuiting a natural mechanism. Women desire sex with these men because their subconscious, and their bodies desire their offspring. That’s nature taking its’ course. However, the end result of the process is being averted with the pill and abortion.

    The pill does affect sexual selection as well, as RS says, but in the opposite direction. The yearning for the alpha is strongest at ovulation, which doesn’t happen when on the pill, creating more demand for betas.

  6. Doug1 says:

    Fosetti–

    Yeah you’re not fully getting Roissy’s point. Human evolution didn’t anticipate the pill.

    Evolution didn’t make men desire babies so much, it made them desire sex with pretty girls. Babies were the result nonetheless – until the pill etc.

  7. Man says:

    Evolution is a lie. You want to know why your primate hierarchy stuff doesn’t work? Because humans aren’t primates.

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